Last night's Angel
Apr. 29th, 2004 09:31 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
stakebaitI missed the very beginning, but ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
ladymondegreen was kind enough to fill me in. I heartily approve of her making the lightbulb demon torture himself. It's an elegant, funny-yet-creepy solution to the problem of having to leave someone behind, and it also works on a metaphorical level -- forget what you came for and the job twists on you even though you can't stop doing it -- you end up cutting your own heart out.
It was cool that Illyria rescued Gunn too -- not that I really understand the thought process, but I'm not supposed to understand her thought process, and it's nice to see her doing something powerful instead of just being talked up as the be all and end all, like the First. And yay, Gunn is back!
It makes me happy that he's back in very anti-corporate clothes, too. Not because I have a problem with spiffy tailored suits or with the work-within-the-system premise in general, but because it means he's not buying the line anymore that he needs to transform himself to be worth something. If he's a good lawyer, he's a good lawyer no matter how he dresses. Same for being a good man.
I also like that he's learned to be damned careful about reading the fine print before you sign anything, and that he's not letting the "whose side are we supposed to be on" stuff hold him back. Although seriously, blond pregnant chick should have had a lawyer of her own. Being advised only by the other side's counsel is the kind of thing that gets prenups invalidated all the time.
Also, speaking of nitpicks, how did the LA branch of W&H end up the most profitable in the first place? I call no way. I liked the line about "this is a business, not a bat cave", though.
Other good one-liners -- Lorne's "I still like him better than Eve", because don't we all. And Hamilton's "yes the patent holder is a client" about Wesley's dry cancer joke. Poor Wes. I so feel the pain of trying to parody someone and not being able to top the horror of what they're actually doing. Anne Rice and George Bush, we're looking at you.
Kvelling demons were cute. Fit Pregnancy magazine! I felt horrible for that girl, though. She'd have been better off never coming to Wolfram and Hart. The kid would still be sacrificed, but at least she'd never have known.
Wow, Wesley is crazy in a whole new way, now. Very fey and almost fluttery. Attractive, but weird, compared to the pared down to the bone and past it focus he's gotten in the past. (And Alexis is an amazing actor, as always.)
It's almost like he's taken part of Fred into himself -- especially with the office/outside dichotomy that Lorne pointed out. In the past, when Wes has been losing it, it's the inside where he marks time alone and the outside where he comes alive to the demands of others. Now it's the other way around, like a cave.
I love the muttered lines about "should apologize but I think it would just be awkward". Confirms for me what's always been my view of why Wes never apologized to Angel. Not quite as convinced that Gunn would be "over it".
Not disputing the relative suck value of the heart thing, but as far as we know Gunn didn't and still doesn't remember Wesley's season three betrayal. This was the first. Don't think even worse physical suffering, self-elected, would dwarf the emotional pain. Though he did say he wasn't sure he would accept it, so maybe they're not going for wiped out so much as lived with.
(Speaking of doesn't remember, I hope by the end of the season they'll tell us whether everyone who wasn't in the immediate range of the warlock got their memories back or not, and if not, were they told).
There was a lot of explanation throwing in this episode. Never thought I'd see the day when I wanted ATS to throw me *fewer* lines. I think it's because the time trick -- which worked out fine in itself -- didn't take the screen time that the Issue of the Week usually does. It rearranged the talking into new and interesting orders, but it was still talking.
I did like the gimmick -- not only because it made sense in itself, but because it hearkens back to the mindwipe in terms of the ability to go back to a wrong turning with the knowledge that it was wrong and make a better ending.
One of the few non-talky moments, the fight scene in the danger room, totally got me. I gasped when Spike got staked. Paradoxically the more people she killed the less I was feeling it, because it was obvious that the show could not continue without any main characters, but just killing Spike with no warning and no big dramatic last scene -- that would be a Joss thing to do.
Still, lots of talking. Lorne explaining Wes to Gunn. Illyria and Angel explaining each other and the time thing to each other. Illyria's a talky little thing in general, isn't she? I've never been so with Angel when he tells someone to shut up. I did like her line about "betrayal was a neutral thing, like water". I liked most of her lines, considered individually, but there were too damned many of them.
Wes explaining Illyria to Angel, part the first and part the second, was also talky but interesting. It was especially interesting that he lied -- that he was willing to lie to Angel, and totally unapologetic about it.
He made it clear that his loyalties are still with Angel -- that he'll still take Angel's orders and put Angel's interests above his own -- but he also made it clear that he'll do what he has to to preserve Angel's interests and the things he himself needs even if that means lying or disobeying. Then again, Angel taught him that, with the Connor mindwipe.
The "I need it" fascinated me. Illyria is like Fred plus Lilah plus Faith with a hint of Angel for Wes (cue "I'm every woman"). She looks like Fred but she talked, with all her ambition and lack of sentiment, more like Lilah, and we already know from last year that Wes likes that combination. Like Faith she needs teaching and guiding and redeeming from him, even though she's far more powerful than he. Like Angel he betrayed her, and she still needs him.
LMG brought up the "defang the woman and then she can be part of the team" aspect, and I can't say she's wrong, but it didn't bother me. Illyria was too powerful, she unbalanced the dynamic not because she was female but because her powers, if logically used, would solve every usual plot too quickly.
To me that's like Angel smashing the Gem of Amarra as much as anything else. Plus it's only lack of power that can make her develop empathy with humanity and any desire to join the team -- much like Spike and the chip. I don't see this as especially gendered, just narrative necessity.
Plus Angel's a control freak. He doesn't like anything he can't yank the reigns on or chop the head off in his city. Hell, he hit Buffy over that. I don't think if Illyria had been Illyrio that it would have made a bit of difference to Angel's reaction, except that Wes probably wouldn't be caught up with him and Angel wouldn't be so worried about Wes for it.
Illyria questioning Spike about herself and Fred was a little too much for me, though. Spike has to say he loved Fred now? Like Lorne and Gunn and Wes and Angel and random people on the street? Are we completely sure Fred isn't actually Jasmine in disguise? Sheesh. That felt to me like a thrown line, an explanation that someone needed, but it wasn't me.
I felt the same about Wes saying he didn't love Illyria -- like he was talking to us more than to Angel. And I never like that, because it smacks of Marti Noxon disease. I've got no brief for Wes being in love with Illyria, but I want the text to stay a little ambiguous. I think the unintended interpretations add depth.
Plus, Wes in particular is so disinclined to talk about his feelings, it was a little jarring. Lord knows that's the kind of thing I might say, but I'm a touchy feely American woman with 10 years of therapy.
I was torn about Gunn's little speech about how the hell dimension sucked and what it meant for W&H. Lord knows he's entitled, and right, and I can understand why the one would make him realize the other. But I think it suffered from being in the same episode as all these other bits of exposition. But the time we got there I found the explicit lesson-drawing too much, when I don't think it would have been on its own.
It was interesting, in a horribly creepy way, to see the lesson Angel was drawing, though. Either he's got a secret plan he doesn't trust the team enough to share with them, or he has *seriously* had a bowl of stupid for breakfast. It never goes well when Angel decides to throw out his scruples to be more effective. Didn't he once say something like "screw the battle, somebody's got to win the war?" And look how well that went.
Letting Fred die, leaving Gunn -- those, while painful, were arguably the right thing to do. Letting the demons have the innocent child to sacrificed -- especially after how hard Angel fought to save Connor from that fate? -- no. That, to me, is much worse than shutting Darla and Dru in the basement with the lawyers.
A couple of weeks ago, Angel was telling Illyria what humans do, with pride. Now he's letting Illyria tell him what kings do even as she's learning better herself. Stupid stupid stupid. If he doesn't watch out, Angel's going to be on the wrong side of this apocalypse, and Gunn, Wes, Spike, and Illyria are going to be on the other.
Overall, it was a food for thought episode. I liked many parts of it, and what direction I think it's moving the season arc, but it didn't hit me as an emotionally complete thing in itself like last week's did. It was a little like one of those books in the middle of a series where all the plotlines move on by a week but nothing is resolved.
As for the promo... it's hard to really appreciate the slashy goodness that is Angel and Spike on a motorcycle -- with Angel in the back! -- when I'm still feeling cold all over about Angel's choice at the end of this week. Don't get me wrong, it's still my OTP, but of all the times to get snuggly!
LMG thinks it's not really Buffy, and I'm inclined to believe her, because all that swinging hair is mistaken identity just waiting to happen. If they really had SMG, they'd use her face. Besides, the promo department loves the fake out line.
ladymondegreen was kind enough to fill me in. I heartily approve of her making the lightbulb demon torture himself. It's an elegant, funny-yet-creepy solution to the problem of having to leave someone behind, and it also works on a metaphorical level -- forget what you came for and the job twists on you even though you can't stop doing it -- you end up cutting your own heart out.It was cool that Illyria rescued Gunn too -- not that I really understand the thought process, but I'm not supposed to understand her thought process, and it's nice to see her doing something powerful instead of just being talked up as the be all and end all, like the First. And yay, Gunn is back!
It makes me happy that he's back in very anti-corporate clothes, too. Not because I have a problem with spiffy tailored suits or with the work-within-the-system premise in general, but because it means he's not buying the line anymore that he needs to transform himself to be worth something. If he's a good lawyer, he's a good lawyer no matter how he dresses. Same for being a good man.
I also like that he's learned to be damned careful about reading the fine print before you sign anything, and that he's not letting the "whose side are we supposed to be on" stuff hold him back. Although seriously, blond pregnant chick should have had a lawyer of her own. Being advised only by the other side's counsel is the kind of thing that gets prenups invalidated all the time.
Also, speaking of nitpicks, how did the LA branch of W&H end up the most profitable in the first place? I call no way. I liked the line about "this is a business, not a bat cave", though.
Other good one-liners -- Lorne's "I still like him better than Eve", because don't we all. And Hamilton's "yes the patent holder is a client" about Wesley's dry cancer joke. Poor Wes. I so feel the pain of trying to parody someone and not being able to top the horror of what they're actually doing. Anne Rice and George Bush, we're looking at you.
Kvelling demons were cute. Fit Pregnancy magazine! I felt horrible for that girl, though. She'd have been better off never coming to Wolfram and Hart. The kid would still be sacrificed, but at least she'd never have known.
Wow, Wesley is crazy in a whole new way, now. Very fey and almost fluttery. Attractive, but weird, compared to the pared down to the bone and past it focus he's gotten in the past. (And Alexis is an amazing actor, as always.)
It's almost like he's taken part of Fred into himself -- especially with the office/outside dichotomy that Lorne pointed out. In the past, when Wes has been losing it, it's the inside where he marks time alone and the outside where he comes alive to the demands of others. Now it's the other way around, like a cave.
I love the muttered lines about "should apologize but I think it would just be awkward". Confirms for me what's always been my view of why Wes never apologized to Angel. Not quite as convinced that Gunn would be "over it".
Not disputing the relative suck value of the heart thing, but as far as we know Gunn didn't and still doesn't remember Wesley's season three betrayal. This was the first. Don't think even worse physical suffering, self-elected, would dwarf the emotional pain. Though he did say he wasn't sure he would accept it, so maybe they're not going for wiped out so much as lived with.
(Speaking of doesn't remember, I hope by the end of the season they'll tell us whether everyone who wasn't in the immediate range of the warlock got their memories back or not, and if not, were they told).
There was a lot of explanation throwing in this episode. Never thought I'd see the day when I wanted ATS to throw me *fewer* lines. I think it's because the time trick -- which worked out fine in itself -- didn't take the screen time that the Issue of the Week usually does. It rearranged the talking into new and interesting orders, but it was still talking.
I did like the gimmick -- not only because it made sense in itself, but because it hearkens back to the mindwipe in terms of the ability to go back to a wrong turning with the knowledge that it was wrong and make a better ending.
One of the few non-talky moments, the fight scene in the danger room, totally got me. I gasped when Spike got staked. Paradoxically the more people she killed the less I was feeling it, because it was obvious that the show could not continue without any main characters, but just killing Spike with no warning and no big dramatic last scene -- that would be a Joss thing to do.
Still, lots of talking. Lorne explaining Wes to Gunn. Illyria and Angel explaining each other and the time thing to each other. Illyria's a talky little thing in general, isn't she? I've never been so with Angel when he tells someone to shut up. I did like her line about "betrayal was a neutral thing, like water". I liked most of her lines, considered individually, but there were too damned many of them.
Wes explaining Illyria to Angel, part the first and part the second, was also talky but interesting. It was especially interesting that he lied -- that he was willing to lie to Angel, and totally unapologetic about it.
He made it clear that his loyalties are still with Angel -- that he'll still take Angel's orders and put Angel's interests above his own -- but he also made it clear that he'll do what he has to to preserve Angel's interests and the things he himself needs even if that means lying or disobeying. Then again, Angel taught him that, with the Connor mindwipe.
The "I need it" fascinated me. Illyria is like Fred plus Lilah plus Faith with a hint of Angel for Wes (cue "I'm every woman"). She looks like Fred but she talked, with all her ambition and lack of sentiment, more like Lilah, and we already know from last year that Wes likes that combination. Like Faith she needs teaching and guiding and redeeming from him, even though she's far more powerful than he. Like Angel he betrayed her, and she still needs him.
LMG brought up the "defang the woman and then she can be part of the team" aspect, and I can't say she's wrong, but it didn't bother me. Illyria was too powerful, she unbalanced the dynamic not because she was female but because her powers, if logically used, would solve every usual plot too quickly.
To me that's like Angel smashing the Gem of Amarra as much as anything else. Plus it's only lack of power that can make her develop empathy with humanity and any desire to join the team -- much like Spike and the chip. I don't see this as especially gendered, just narrative necessity.
Plus Angel's a control freak. He doesn't like anything he can't yank the reigns on or chop the head off in his city. Hell, he hit Buffy over that. I don't think if Illyria had been Illyrio that it would have made a bit of difference to Angel's reaction, except that Wes probably wouldn't be caught up with him and Angel wouldn't be so worried about Wes for it.
Illyria questioning Spike about herself and Fred was a little too much for me, though. Spike has to say he loved Fred now? Like Lorne and Gunn and Wes and Angel and random people on the street? Are we completely sure Fred isn't actually Jasmine in disguise? Sheesh. That felt to me like a thrown line, an explanation that someone needed, but it wasn't me.
I felt the same about Wes saying he didn't love Illyria -- like he was talking to us more than to Angel. And I never like that, because it smacks of Marti Noxon disease. I've got no brief for Wes being in love with Illyria, but I want the text to stay a little ambiguous. I think the unintended interpretations add depth.
Plus, Wes in particular is so disinclined to talk about his feelings, it was a little jarring. Lord knows that's the kind of thing I might say, but I'm a touchy feely American woman with 10 years of therapy.
I was torn about Gunn's little speech about how the hell dimension sucked and what it meant for W&H. Lord knows he's entitled, and right, and I can understand why the one would make him realize the other. But I think it suffered from being in the same episode as all these other bits of exposition. But the time we got there I found the explicit lesson-drawing too much, when I don't think it would have been on its own.
It was interesting, in a horribly creepy way, to see the lesson Angel was drawing, though. Either he's got a secret plan he doesn't trust the team enough to share with them, or he has *seriously* had a bowl of stupid for breakfast. It never goes well when Angel decides to throw out his scruples to be more effective. Didn't he once say something like "screw the battle, somebody's got to win the war?" And look how well that went.
Letting Fred die, leaving Gunn -- those, while painful, were arguably the right thing to do. Letting the demons have the innocent child to sacrificed -- especially after how hard Angel fought to save Connor from that fate? -- no. That, to me, is much worse than shutting Darla and Dru in the basement with the lawyers.
A couple of weeks ago, Angel was telling Illyria what humans do, with pride. Now he's letting Illyria tell him what kings do even as she's learning better herself. Stupid stupid stupid. If he doesn't watch out, Angel's going to be on the wrong side of this apocalypse, and Gunn, Wes, Spike, and Illyria are going to be on the other.
Overall, it was a food for thought episode. I liked many parts of it, and what direction I think it's moving the season arc, but it didn't hit me as an emotionally complete thing in itself like last week's did. It was a little like one of those books in the middle of a series where all the plotlines move on by a week but nothing is resolved.
As for the promo... it's hard to really appreciate the slashy goodness that is Angel and Spike on a motorcycle -- with Angel in the back! -- when I'm still feeling cold all over about Angel's choice at the end of this week. Don't get me wrong, it's still my OTP, but of all the times to get snuggly!
LMG thinks it's not really Buffy, and I'm inclined to believe her, because all that swinging hair is mistaken identity just waiting to happen. If they really had SMG, they'd use her face. Besides, the promo department loves the fake out line.
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Date: 2004-04-29 02:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-04-29 02:57 pm (UTC)The deaths: Again, I invoked gallows humor and quipped, a la a particualr Freakazoid! episode, "we thought we'd run Animaniacs reruns." If you aren't a fan of that show, I am afraid this goes over your head. But it's funny if you're me.
Otherwise, however, it was a great scene of the sort that time travel stories are good at. (Anyone get flashbacks to the Enterprise-D blowing up in the teaser of "Cause and Effect" and Riker's death in "Yesterday's Enterprise?")
Wesley and Illyria: Here's my theory - this is a bizarro Watcher/Slayer relationship. Wesley's life is broken. He has no love left. He feels like he has no friends. So he falls back on the one thing that is still stuck inside, his training. Here's a powerful woman - at least in shape - who needs training and shaping and watching. And here's the failed Watcher. (Indeed, in his mind, I think he feels he is a total failure now.) This is his last chance to get it right. Yes, there are other factors at work about Wes' obsession with Fred and about Wes' ever-more-depressed and possibly deranged mindset. But the Watcher within is certainly here.
The ending: What happened? Does Angel have a plan at last? I sure hope so. If there is one thing I have not like this season, it is that Angel seemingly got clued in when Cordy returned, and then began spinning his wheels about making a real plan. It's not as bad as watching Buffy in season six get clued in about her true potential only to backslide the following two weeks till the next speech. But it's similar. With two weeks left - my guess is that next week is not going to advance the arc much - Angel had beeter be ready.
The script: The fell demons ordering a cola. Angel invoking "Slaughterhouse-Five" by saying that Illyria is unstuck in time. The assorted conversations. Lots of little touches like that. All from the pen of Ben Edlund, who may be the next big thing to emerge from the Mutant Enemy crew. (It's amazing how many ME staffers have landed jobs on other shows already.) I am hoping that Ben sticks with Joss for a while, since I really like what he's done with ME.
Spike: Glad that this week he was not played for laughs only and that he was making headway in fighting Illyria. A thought - Spike is the best fighter in the Buffyverse. He's got 125 years of experience, he seems to have educated himself in a way that Angel hasn't, and he really likes it. Oh, and he thinks. That is why he beat Angel. Why he can keep up with Illyria. And I would suspect that in a fair fight with Buffy herself, he could beat her.
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Date: 2004-04-29 04:10 pm (UTC)I agree with your theory--it's not the whole explanation, but I think it's a contributing factor to the ease with which Wesley has gone from "you killed my girlfriend!" to whatever their relationship is now.
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Date: 2004-04-29 03:02 pm (UTC)I'm thinking you are right about SMG, no way would the WB not flash her return in neon were it really her. In a way I'm glad I'm a superficial fangirl and can look at Angel grabbing Spike's back and know that it was just meant to be, lol.
The whole pregnant subplot was the only part of the ep that didn't just grip me, excuses to bring the actor's spouses on board rarely turn out well though, so I'll forgive them. I just loved seeing a bit of the old Angel back. The guy who is in charge and has no problem telling people to shut up and stop questioning him. He's 240+ years old for pete's sake, why does he feel the need to second guess himself on even the smallest matters. It's time he remembered that for a good long while he (angelus he) was the *king*, feared and awed. That's the confidence I want to see, and there were several glimmers of integration in this ep.
no subject
Date: 2004-04-29 03:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-04-29 03:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-04-29 03:27 pm (UTC)Mer
I don't think Angel's sacrificing the baby
Date: 2004-04-29 03:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-04-29 03:46 pm (UTC)Wow. I didn't see it that way initially, but that totally works for me.
Also, I'm hoping Angel has a plan, maybe faking out W&H so when this new apocalypse comes, he might have a few extra cards up his sleeve.
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Date: 2004-04-29 04:11 pm (UTC)Also, I didn't think of this until just now, but if this turns out to be true on more than a metaphorical level, it would make sense of why Wes needs Illyria -- he's connected to the body -- and the science/traplike solution he found.
I hope you're right about the plan.
no subject
Date: 2004-04-29 03:48 pm (UTC)She's wearing those (not so) invisible braces.
Also, my hubby brought up a good point. Angel has 12 1/2 years to save the kid from sacrifice. Whatever he's doing, or pretending to do, now, it's not gonna impact the child in any major way for quite a while. He just bought himself and his team some time.
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Date: 2004-04-29 04:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-04-29 10:52 pm (UTC)------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yea, but I think we were meant to believe that the demons would kill her and the baby if she didn't agree immediately. OTOH, we were also meant to believe that Spike loved Fred. So clearly, the writers MMV from oh say, reality.
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Date: 2004-04-29 04:13 pm (UTC)My big problem with Angel's decision is that the show keeps retreading the same ground. Angel Shuts Himself Off From Others. Angel Is Depressed. Angel Gets Ruthless. Angel Sees the Light. Lather, Rinse, Repeat, Yawn.
I'm also not entirely convinced that the writers have their rhetoric down. So, was Angel's decision a Big Mistake? If so, there's been way too much retreading of ground. If not, there's still been too much whiney rhetoric. I'm not getting the sense of a strong vision behind the season, more a sorta wishy-washy marking time between a few strong eps.
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Date: 2004-04-29 06:50 pm (UTC)ROTLFMAO. That must be why I keep expecting them to just start making out.
If he doesn't watch out, Angel's going to be on the wrong side of this apocalypse, and Gunn, Wes, Spike, and Illyria are going to be on the other.
Oooh, that would be awesome. Sucky for Angel, but what a plot line.
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Date: 2004-04-29 09:21 pm (UTC)Illyria was too powerful, she unbalanced the dynamic not because she was female but because her powers, if logically used, would solve every usual plot too quickly.
Exactly. Not only that, but it wouldn't be logical. She has tremendous power physically, she can wander through dimensions, alter the fabric of time, and heaven knows what else, and she doesn't give a shit about anyone but herself. She literally sees every other creature as an animal or an insect, utterly beneath her. Are we really supposed to believe that Angel would let that kind of liability roam freely? It doesn't matter whether she's male or female, she's a risk. Period.
Plus Angel's a control freak. He doesn't like anything he can't yank the reigns on or chop the head off in his city.
Precisly. If there's one thing we've learned about Angel in the time this show has been on the air, it's that he likes to be in control. He likes to be confident in his power over a situation, and he doesn't like "x factors". It's really not a matter of whether the x factor happens to be female or not.
Plus it's only lack of power that can make her develop empathy with humanity and any desire to join the team -- much like Spike and the chip. I don't see this as especially gendered, just narrative necessity.
Word. It was more obvious in this ep that in any other that Illyria doesn't even begin to see the others as equals. And if she's going to be a part of the team, we can't have that. She can't be on the team until she respects them, and we've got to drag her down to the others' level, power-wise, if she's ever going to learn to respect them.
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Date: 2004-04-30 02:56 am (UTC)Wesley's new craziness: Wow. I completely missed the Fredlike aspect to it, but it's so right.
I'm seriously worried about him, though. Boy's got nothing left and he knows it.
Slashy goodness: Angel repeating under his breath "I slew the white-haired one first," and then moving.
Misogyny: Nope, not buying it. Unless you're also going to say that Spike's chip/soul cocktail was a case of "castrate the male and then he can join the team". And Spike's a whole lot more male than Illyria is female.
Last moment: I was actually expecting another thirty seconds of show after that, involving a Scene Of Indescribable Violence behind those closed doors and ending with Angel emerging with pregnant lady in tow and calling for a cleanup crew.
I'm still faintly hoping that's where they're going.
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Date: 2004-04-30 08:42 pm (UTC)But it ought to be the sort of action, even if my take above is correct, that seriously alienates Gunn.
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Date: 2004-05-03 05:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-05-03 06:56 pm (UTC)It's actually a Vespa. Very popular in Rome (see Roman Holiday with Audrey Hepburn & Gregory Peck)