I have to agree that I'm just not quite seeing it a high degree of misogyny in AtS.
The other part of the problem, besides the fact that there's a limited number of major characters you can have, is that you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.
I think a large part of the problem is being overly fair. I look at Lindsey and Lilah in the second season of AtS. Either of them could have been the one to reconsider their actions, consider if they wanted to be good or evil. The fact that Lindsey, at the time, made a choice to leave the evil law firm and Lilah didn't - it's up to personal interpretation. Somebody could make the case that it's that men are more worthy of being redeemed than women. That same person, if Lilah had been the one who made that choice, might also make the case that it was because Lilah was a female and thus softer and less effective at being evil. Ultimately it comes down to them being individuals, not being male or female. The good guys and the bad guys both have to be across the board and personally I think that ME does a good job of that.
But if you have a particular agenda, you can find supporting evidence for it and make yourself believe it. I just don't believe it's true.
I agree with you that Fred was made too perfect, at least in the lens that the men viewed her through. That that was a mistake that they wouldn't have made for a male character. However, I think that male characters are just as likely to suffer as female. One could say that Doyle was killed off in order to give Cordelia's story more prominence, in order to give her special powers. That he was sacrificed in order to give a female character a larger and more important role. But that's the problem with broad, general statements - you CAN find the evidence, but they don't often take into account reality. I read through the arguments and I just couldn't agree with them, but obviously I was working from such a very different viewpoint.
I'm not saying that there aren't shows that do have agendas. Or even that Joss doesn't have one. But people also have agendas. I think the best thing about that is that it makes people think, in either case. To consider the message that their actions and choices are sending. Thinking about it, debating it, can help you clarify your own vision of the world. Because the interesting thing is that while JennyO starts off by saying it is Joss's misogynst message, she's ultimately blaming the viewers. By saying that if Connor was a female, the viewers would have been more appalled by the storyline. Which is an entirely different story (and of course, the fact is there's a huge number of people out there that hated him/it as it is)
I'm not sure if I'm clear there, I've got too many thoughts rushing through me. Ohh, Thursdays
Thank you for such an interesting post because I’ve been squirming a bit uncomfortably all night. And sorry if I've gotten a bit off track!
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The other part of the problem, besides the fact that there's a limited number of major characters you can have, is that you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.
I think a large part of the problem is being overly fair. I look at Lindsey and Lilah in the second season of AtS. Either of them could have been the one to reconsider their actions, consider if they wanted to be good or evil. The fact that Lindsey, at the time, made a choice to leave the evil law firm and Lilah didn't - it's up to personal interpretation. Somebody could make the case that it's that men are more worthy of being redeemed than women. That same person, if Lilah had been the one who made that choice, might also make the case that it was because Lilah was a female and thus softer and less effective at being evil. Ultimately it comes down to them being individuals, not being male or female. The good guys and the bad guys both have to be across the board and personally I think that ME does a good job of that.
But if you have a particular agenda, you can find supporting evidence for it and make yourself believe it. I just don't believe it's true.
I agree with you that Fred was made too perfect, at least in the lens that the men viewed her through. That that was a mistake that they wouldn't have made for a male character. However, I think that male characters are just as likely to suffer as female. One could say that Doyle was killed off in order to give Cordelia's story more prominence, in order to give her special powers. That he was sacrificed in order to give a female character a larger and more important role. But that's the problem with broad, general statements - you CAN find the evidence, but they don't often take into account reality. I read through the arguments and I just couldn't agree with them, but obviously I was working from such a very different viewpoint.
I'm not saying that there aren't shows that do have agendas. Or even that Joss doesn't have one. But people also have agendas. I think the best thing about that is that it makes people think, in either case. To consider the message that their actions and choices are sending. Thinking about it, debating it, can help you clarify your own vision of the world. Because the interesting thing is that while JennyO starts off by saying it is Joss's misogynst message, she's ultimately blaming the viewers. By saying that if Connor was a female, the viewers would have been more appalled by the storyline. Which is an entirely different story (and of course, the fact is there's a huge number of people out there that hated him/it as it is)
I'm not sure if I'm clear there, I've got too many thoughts rushing through me. Ohh, Thursdays
Thank you for such an interesting post because I’ve been squirming a bit uncomfortably all night. And sorry if I've gotten a bit off track!